Menfolk Journeys
This podcast explores how different men from all walks of life wear the beautiful and confusing mantle of manhood.
Men can be knuckleheads in public life. But in private, if given the right questions and if they feel comfortable, men can also be thoughtful, reflective, and have deep conversations about their lives, big questions, and meaningful ideas.
We have great conversations with men just like us and from all walks of life, so we can learn from their personal stories and all get better together.
Menfolk Journeys
49. Eric and Being Lionhearted
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What does it mean to be Lionhearted?
How can you be - as a man - a Warrior, Lover, King, and Hero? And, what do those archetypes actually mean in terms of building ourselves?
And, when you’re raised to be quiet, small, and unassuming, what happens when you realize that you’re bigger, bolder, and stronger than you thought?
Eric Rogell’s journey is about finding true strength of being. Understanding the balance of pride and compassion, strength and tenderness, fierceness and love. Of being all of those things, and feeling all of those emotions in order to become a more fully-versed man.
Also, you can find his book on Amazon: Lions Raised as Lambs: Your Guide To Being a Better Man.
And I've interviewed a lot of military veterans and active duty guys. And when you look at fathers in family, um protecting the family, the husband protecting the family, what's the one common denominator? And when I asked the military guys, this is what I love about them, the one answer that I got more than anything for the reason why, and it came down to love. And love is the most powerful thing in the universe. And when you're talking about going after those things in ourselves and getting that self-esteem, and when I look at, you know, going after shadow, what what defeats shadow is love.
SPEAKER_02Welcome in to Menfolk Journeys, the podcast of Great Conversations with Men. I'm your host, Chris Foster, and we're going to explore how we wear this beautiful and confusing mantle of manhood in the 21st century. Look, I get it. In public life, a lot of men are knuckleheads. But in private life, we can be thoughtful and we can be reflective if we have the right conversation, if we feel comfortable talking about our story. And we all have a great story to tell. And we can all learn from those stories. We can learn about who we've been, who we are, and who we want to be. And that's why we're going to have this conversation. So we can learn from other men just like us. And in this episode, we're going to talk with my new friend Eric. Eric has a very interesting perspective on all the different sides of masculinity, right? Our strength, our love, our fierceness, our protection and compassion, and how we as men can be warriors, lovers, heroes, and kings and become better ourselves. This is a marvelous conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome in to Menfolk Journeys. Hey folks, this is Chris, and I wanted to let you know that you can support this episode. If you love these conversations and get something out of them, you can support the show by helping me with the platform fees and technologies that make this show happen. Simply go to buymeacoffee.com slash menfolk journeys. Look, I know it's a long URL, but it works. BuymeaCoffee dot com slash menfolk journeys. Just like it sounds. You can donate a buck, five, three bucks, ten bucks, whatever. You can even make it monthly. And all proceeds go to support the technologies I use to make this show happen. Thank you so much and enjoy the episode. Well, okay, Eric Rogell, welcome in.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Chris. Man, it's awesome to be here.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's fantastic having you. Tell us a bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, uh, let's see. I've got your little thing here, which I think is awesome. So uh I live in Florida. My name's Eric Rogel. I just turned 60 a few months ago, which was congratulations. Pretty awesome. Thank you. Feel like I'm 35, but I am 60. Uh I am an author. I've got a couple of best-selling books. I'm a uh documentary film producer. Our latest one just won a bunch of awards. Uh, I was a competitive storyteller, which uh was a lot of fun for a little while. And um I am an executive coach, and I own the Lion Heart Leadership. And I teach uh executives how to lead from both their lion side and their heart side to be a much more effective leader. And I work with a lot of dads too, who want to be better fathers and better husbands and and raise strong sons. So hopefully that answers your question, and we can get into more as we go.
SPEAKER_02I think that's fantastic. I want to first dive into the idea of lion heart as the name of that business, where uh to me that whole concept evokes both strength and courage and kindness and compassion. Was that the idea?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, in my work, we really um we we use the four, what I call the four foundational archetypes, right? And um in my latest book, which is Lions Raised as lambs, it was really about men who are raised to be soft and kind of ignore that lion side of them. And I know a lot of young men that are out there, and and even some some guys that are in their middle age and older, um, really feel like they've they've suppressed that side of them. And how can you express that in a healthy way? So we have the four foundational archetypes, which are the warrior, the lover, the king, and the hero. And that warrior and that lover are those two sides of us. And what I usually tell men is hey, look, you know, it's it's it's a part of us. Each of these are parts of us that we have to express to be a fully realized man. So if you're only coming from your warrior side, this is when people see us as like overbearing and a barbarian, and it's where we get that people saying toxic masculinity. And I always tell them no such thing as toxic masculinity. Masculinity is just misunderstood, misused, and mistaught. That's when you can come from that positive side, that lion side, if you will, of us, that beast that's inside us, and learn how to express it properly. Uh, it's a very, very beautiful thing. And we also, as men, have that other side of us, the heart side, the lover archetype is our heart side. And those are things like wisdom and compassion and empathy and creativity and playfulness and trust and generosity and all these beautiful things that make life so you know juicy and delicious, right? And we need that too. So even as leaders, you have to have both, whether you're leading your family or a business or a team. That lion-hearted, when I tell men, just remember lion-hearted both.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00Because you need them both. 100%. And it's the lion's side is you know, the boldness and the the we'll say aggression, but in a positive way or ambition, um, exploration, courage, decisiveness, uh, you know, all of those things that are when when commanded the right way, are incredibly powerful. But then to support that with the lover and the heart side, man, it's just amazing. You know what I mean? And so that that's where kind of lion hearted came from.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I love that dichotomy. It's it's that yin-yang where you've got the the balance of each. Um, you know, lions in the wild um have to protect the pride. That's their main job is protection, right? Um, and you know, making sure that uh their strength wards off predators or wards off um threat, right? And so the I think the idea that you said, you know, gosh, the phrase toxic max masculinity has been unearthed and put into the media. But what's interesting to me is that masculinity in and of itself isn't toxic. Toxic is toxic, whether you're a male or a female, parent, son, it doesn't matter. Toxic is the word. And I think that what we're struggling with as men, and what I've talked to some other guys about, and especially younger men, is how do you not be, how do you be strong but not um threatening? How do you be positive and and and uh have a sense of self-confidence without being an a-hole, right? Right, right? How do you right the idea of balancing out um the strength that comes with being a man, that we have physical strength? That's great, right? And that's something that we can use, that's something we can take pride in, and that's something that I think that men need to understand and equip themselves with. I do think that men should be in shape. I do think that men should understand their strength. I do think they should be physically vigorous. I think all these things are really important. Um and um yet at the same time, we are um confused. Oh, my cat's not confused, we are confused that um, you know, can how do I then un you know become more empathetic? How do I can how can I be vulnerable without being weak? I was talking to a young man where he's he he had a challenge in the foster home system, and he said, you know, and as he was growing up in that system, he couldn't feel vulnerable because his whole life was vulnerable. Like he was exposed his whole life, he had no power in his life because he was shuttled through the quote unquote the system, right? And so for him, not having any power, what do you do when you don't have any power? Well, you push back with a lot of aggression to show that you got power, right? And so he has Yeah, yeah, he overcompensates. So he had a hard time kind of figuring out how do I actually be vulnerable and how can vulnerability be a show of strength and a show of courage. So I I like I like what you talked about where that um there are paths forward for men now that can find a way of of of courage and compassion, of strength and serenity, of um of leadership and love, right? These things we we can can coexist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, you used the word dichotomy earlier, the yin and the yang. And and what I tell a lot of men is look, on that warrior side, right? So you have the warrior and the lover, and those are the two opposites, right? The the polar polarity of those two, and they they exist together, right? At the same time, in each of those, there is the limiting and the empowering. So on the warrior side, I would say the limiting is that like overbearing, violent, inconsiderate, chauvinistic, uh, misogynistic, um, you know, dirty, all of those negative things, right? And that's where people go, oh, see, toxic masculinity. There it is, right there. That's just that one side. Now, if you look at the empowering side of masculinity or the warrior or a lion, and those are the things I mentioned, like courageous and the guardian, like you mentioned, the lion's job is to protect the guardian and an explorer, an adventurer, uh, decisiveness is very much that positive, um, empowering trait. So, when you look at those, when I work with men, it's like understand when you're in that limiting side. What people would point to and say, well, that's toxic behavior. Well, I just say limiting. And where can you shift into the empowering side of you know the warrior, the masculine, the lion, whatever you want to call it, and really be that positive side. And it's teaching these young men that. Now, when you said vulnerability, so we have a thing in the work that I do, and I call it vulnerability from strength. Correct. And so it is about men being okay with being vulnerable. Like you, like, Chris, you could ask me any question right now about my upbringing, my family, my past, my biggest mistakes, the shit that most people try to hide, and I will tell you because you know, I've I've always been open about this, and to me, that's vulnerability from strength. Also going to someone and saying, like, hey, Chris, listen, I'm having a challenge with something right now, and I really don't know how to handle it, man. I'd love some wisdom from you. That's being vulnerable from strength. You're admitting that you, you know, you need some help. You need somebody to come in, and this is what we do as men. Nobody does this alone.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00It's the vulnerability from weakness that bothers me when guys are like whine, they're like, oh, my wife, and I don't know what's going on, and I can't. That's weak. Like, come from strength, and you know, men will be more than more than happy to to you know stand shoulder to shoulder with you and help you any way they can.
SPEAKER_02And listen, that's right. And so when we were taught, I was talking with Josh about this, where um, you know, the most, you know, this is from the Edict sagas, where um it was an Icelandic scholar who transcribed a lot of the oral traditions from Norse mythology, right? Odin and all this stuff, right? And Odin was walking around Midgard Earth, and he says, uh, looking at people and listening to them, and he was thinking about the magic of the world. And he said, the most powerful magic word of all is help, because you both give it and receive it, right? And the idea that as a man you can be strong enough to be vulnerable and ask for help, that comes from a position of courage and strength, right? That you can be and and so what I think is interesting about you know what you just said in your in your opener, you have actually lived to from, I mean, we've known each other now for 10 minutes and 30 seconds, right? But you seem to me a courageous person, even with your career choice, right? You've done some traveling, you've done um uh entrepreneurialship, you're you've written books. So where did that courage come from? And did it always exist, or was that a learned thing that you had to do for yourself?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is an awesome question, Chris. And and you know, for me, it's it was learned. I a hundred percent was not raised in a way.
SPEAKER_02Interesting.
SPEAKER_00And I yeah, I talk about um, and this is something that I I cover in the book, but it's one of the things that fascinates most people when I when I come and talk to them about it, and that is there's really only two ways. Um, and I say this, you know, to raise a child, raise a young man, uh, raise a young woman, um lead a team, uh, be a you know a leader in business, whatever it may be. And that is you can either be in a culture of fear or a culture of courage. Okay. Now I was raised in a culture of fear, and I didn't realize this until I was, you know, much older that that's you know how I was raised. And I I was raised by a single mom. You know, I talk about this a lot, you know, my part of my origin story, if you will. And and you know, my mom, um, she was a uh single mom. My my parents split when I was 11. Dad worked a ton, so he wasn't around a whole lot. And when he was, it was like he wanted to be buddy buddy. He was like the fun guy, he didn't want to be disciplinary. So mom had to handle all that. And um, you know, mom was a fearful person. She was the biggest heart of anybody I ever met in my whole life. She was absolutely amazing that way. But she, her mindset and her worldview was everyone is gonna try to take advantage of you, everyone is gonna try to hurt you, everyone's gonna try to take what you have, don't stand out, don't make a lot of noise, don't make waves, don't, you know, fly under the radar, don't get noticed.
SPEAKER_02100% fly under the radar, don't rock the boat, don't just you know, it's interesting, you know, just from what you talk about with your mom, is you know, it's it's it's oversimplistic to say you either have an abundance or scarcity mentality, but there's part of that, right? She has a scarcity mentality of needing to protect and needing also to not draw attention to herself, right? And so that's interesting to me that you said that. Did she is was that the home life? Does she impart that in the way you guys lived and how she raised you?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I mean, listen, like I said, she had a tremendous heart, she made friends very easy. People absolutely loved and adored her. I loved and adored her.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00Um, later on. And when I was younger, I was very resentful. And because look, like I had this lion inside of me, and I knew I was meant to be a lion, but she was like, Don't, don't, don't. And I'm so I was, you know, I was an indoor boy. I always joked that my mom raised me like a beal, right? I had to be very soft and tender and not get pumped or bruised, right? So I was on the corner reading, and it was comic books and science fiction and fantasy, and you know, I the kids were outside playing stickball and kill the carrier and you know, football. Yeah. No, no, no, no, you're gonna stay inside. And so I really resented her. But here's the thing, Chris. What I really found was later on, it was mom didn't do that because she was trying to punish me or hurt me or keep me down. She did that because she loved me, and that was out of love. Yeah, yeah, she did it out of protection, right?
SPEAKER_02That's right, right, exactly. And and and for her, she was like, Well, you're my precious lamb, right? You've you're my precious lamb. You've you've we've got to protect you. Question for you now. You talked about reading science fiction and fantasy and comic books. Oftentimes those genres have really strong heroes and strong male heroes, especially the comic books. Did you relate and try to connect with some of those heroes and think about those folks?
SPEAKER_00Oh, that was my whole life, man. That was like I lived in my head. It was like very much fantasy of like, here I am, this you know, scared, weak, skinny little boy, and I wanted to be Superman. I wanted to be Batman, I wanted to be Captain Kirk, I wanted to be right, you know what I mean? Like all these characters, I wanted to be, you know, um Aragon from uh or Aragorn from um Lord of the Rings.
SPEAKER_02Lord of the Rings, that's right.
SPEAKER_00You know, there were all these Hercules, even from the myths. Like I wanted to be these characters, and I think, you know, looking back on it, it's part of why I say, like, you know, when when I was younger, I would I would just take out my blamethrower and just burn everybody to the ground, right? Like, blame mom, it was her fault. She did this to me. I'm weak and afraid now, you know, and raised in fear because of her. But now I look at it as now it's it's if I hadn't had that, if if that hadn't been my upbringing, I wouldn't be sitting here right now talking to you, Chris. I would be, you know, um, I don't know where my path would have gone, but I did use those. And if you look at it, you know, a huge fan of Joseph Campbell and his hero's journey and you know, myths and legends and his book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, because every story is every story is every story.
SPEAKER_02And we we all are the hero of our own story, and that's why I think that's why these archetypes actually matter, right? Because the archetype from you know Gilgamesh to um the coyote, right, it does it, they persist, right? They they go through cultures. And and I think what I what I like about what you said is that oftentimes you don't even know the roots of why you choose different things or choose a path. You chose a path of courage, and that was a choice, and that wouldn't have happened probably if you didn't have the upbringing that you had, right? Um you needed to recreate your own life, not a life that you thought you were gonna live based on what your mom thought your life was going to be, but what your life was going to be.
SPEAKER_00And and listen, I I made a decision when I when I graduated from high school and was going away to college, and I knew I was gonna be out from under mama's apron and kind of you know, cutting the umbilical cord, if you will, and going off of my own. And I made the decision that, you know, when I got to college, nobody was gonna know me. They weren't really gonna know who I was or how I was raised. I'm going to be more courageous. Um, I didn't really put it in those terms. I'm gonna be more courageous, but I'm gonna do the things that I want to do. And so, you know, I always wanted to take martial arts classes when I was a kid because I'd watch Kung Fu theater on Sundays, you know, of course. And I wanted to do that, but mom was like, no, like that was foreign. And no, are you kidding me? You're gonna get bumped and bruised, and you're gonna break bones and all that. So I joined a martial arts school when I when I got to college, like day one. And yeah, I got bumped and bruised, and I broke bones, and I was like, this is awesome. Exactly. This is how it should be. Right? This is like I'm I'm a young man and I'm supposed to do this, like test myself. Yeah, you know, and that's where I started to go more into I was like, I wanted more of that. Like I wanted to seek out more of that.
SPEAKER_02Seek that out, right? And so there's um, I I think what's a what I love about our human experience is that there are times when, for lack of a better phrase, Eric, there's a survival instinct that kicks in. Sometimes it's real survival, as in life, death, food, money, etc. But oftentimes, um, if that's taken care of and you're and you're not scrounging for your next meal, there's psychological survival, there's identity survival, there is um self-esteem survival. And and you do these things to where, you know, your survival instinct kicked in to say, no, there's a there's a different man that's actually inside of me that I'm supposed to be. And the survival instinct that I have is I've got to get to that guy as quickly as I can, right? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna be that man as soon as I'm out from you know, the the gays or you know, even worrying my mom, right? Because so I I grew up with a single mom too. So my my folks split when I was five. Um my dad lived in the same town, and I saw him every other weekend, and he wasn't. Not involved with my life, but he wasn't involved in a daily way in my life, right? He just wasn't. Um, and the primary influence of growing up was my mom. And you can't help but in that environment, have that impression to create impressions, to have the culture of that home somehow manifest in the culture of your own life and how you look at things and look at the world. And there you have to have either a decisive break or these moments of break so that you can carve out your own identity. I think it's much harder to do that if it's a single parent versus two parents. And two parents, it kind of diffuses the environment, and kids can balance and understand who they are a little bit better because they're bouncing off of two parents and they each have perspective. But when it's a single parent, it's a really intense relationship, right? Uh right, and so and it's harder to find out who you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I and I think for my mom it was tough because she had to be the mother and the father. So she had to you know provide the love and then also the discipline and that kind of guidance. And she was she's not a man, so she couldn't guide me as a man. And I understood that later on. And it was really, you know, the more I experienced, the more I wanted to experience. Right. You know what I mean? Like the more I experienced the masculine side of myself, the more I was like, this is the part that feels natural, right? I need to do more of this, and so you know, that's kind of when I, you know, you make that break, but it's um, and make that decision. And some men don't make that decision, they they just get stuck in that loop. Uh you know, for me, so so one of the couple of the things that always were like my mom always wanted me to be the good boy, like I had to be good, I had to behave, I couldn't bring shame upon her, you know what I mean? So I had to always so my my whole life was about pleasing other people and being oh right, right, not you know, rocking the boat. And I was like, oh man, this is crazy. And the other thing she used to say to me, so you know, obviously my dad left. I think you know, he's the one that filed for divorce and didn't want to be in there. So mom was horribly hurt and heartbroken and all that. And I can understand that. But one of the things she would say to me, especially at the beginning, right after my father left, was don't be like your father. Promise me you're never gonna be like your father. Don't be like your father. And here I am, this young kid, and I'm like, whoa my gosh. Awesome! I love dad. What do you yeah? What do you mean, don't be like my father? Like that. That's the guy I look up to. That's the guy I aspire to be.
SPEAKER_02That's your model of manhood when you're younger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that screwed me up for a long time. Was like, you know, maybe mom knows better. Like, what's wrong with dad? And then I started to resent him a little bit too. And, you know, for what he did to her. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Like that's yeah, which had nothing, yeah, which had nothing to do with you. You know, it's so interesting, Eric, that you still remember that conversation, even though it happened, you know, 40, 50 years ago, that the imprints of those conversations and those moments still linger. And I think that's also why it's very hard for men and and folks when they get older to overcome those imprints. Because, you know, your mom says, Don't be like your father, but you're like, well, actually, there are parts of dad that are awesome, right? There are parts of him that are really cool as a man. If you say don't be like him, what does that mean? You know, and it was interesting when I, as I've gotten older, I look back on my parents as, and I'm a lot more forgiving, I'm a lot kinder with you know, the you know, their journeys, right, and what they had to go through. And and it's funny because I look at my dad, and and for most, for most boys, um their first model of manhood is their father or father figure, even if that, even if he's in the house or not, there's an image, right? And you know, the with my dad, there were certain aspects of him which I greatly admired and I thought were just um incredible. And there's certain aspects of him where I was like, that's exactly what I don't want to do, right? That's who I don't want to be, right? Which is natural, and that's totally fair and fine. And I think that you have to, as especially as young men, to your point about understanding that balance between warrior, between lover, between king, between what's the fourth one? Hero. Hero, hero, right? Um, between those four elements, every young boy, I think, looks at their father and tries to put their father in some part of that, right? Some type of warrior, some type of hero. They need, we need our fathers to be that for us. We need our fathers to be protectors, we need our fathers to be caretakers, right? And we need them to be models of who, what kind of men we want to be. And I think that if you don't put that into language and you don't put that into perspective, too easily young men can say, Well, I don't want to be like my dad, so I'm gonna rebel and be completely opposite without drawing some of the great qualities.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Right?
SPEAKER_02I mean or I'm gonna be just like my dad and you miss out on some of the things that you could be. Uh, it's an interesting way to think about that in terms of how you determine a model of manhood for yourself.
SPEAKER_00Well, and listen, you know, it's it's the same thing with young women. Uh, you know, I tell guys all the time, you're the example, you're the role model. They're looking at you whether you think they are or not. And this goes along with like, you know, even if you're a leader in a in a company, um, you know, your employees are looking at you whether you know they are or not. But like so many young women have bad examples of fathers and they they end up dating all the wrong men, right? So exactly, exactly. That's a that's age old, baby. And they resent their dads so hard, they become their fathers. Right. They, you know, like um they say, you know, alcoholism runs in family, abuse runs in families, because that's the example you're seeing, and that's what you're thinking I have to be. And so that's why we tell fathers it's so important to be on that empowering side of warrior, empowering side of lover, because you can very easily, you know, uh be the wrong kind of example. And some young people, you know, young men, young women aren't, I'll say wise, aren't wise enough to see the difference in the empowering.
SPEAKER_02And I think that the especially for younger folks now, and I'm not blaming everything on social media because that's not that's not the villain of the day. Well, you can, because if you want to, you can. But what I but what I can tell you is that one of the big um drawbacks and challenges of social media is that it lacks that sense of complexity. Uh, it lacks a sense of nuance and of balance, right? So a TikTok post or a Facebook post will be all in on one piece, right? So they're gonna say, look at this toxic man, he was such an asshole to in the grocery store. And I was like, okay, well, that is a snippet of a moment of a guy, maybe on his worst day. Um, and and but doesn't excuse the behavior, but the there are more there are more ways to describe people and to be people than is reflected in social media. And so to your point about we're all part of it, right? We all have, you know, all men have heroes in them and warriors and lovers, and you know, and and they all have these these aspects to them. It's a question of to your point about channeling the right behaviors, and and more so than that, I think, Eric, it's also um uh it's also important to have the right model of manhood for the right reasons, right? There's very it's very rare, I think, where you can say there's one guy that's gonna be the model of manhood for me, period. Because that's not true because there are aspects of of men that you can find in models.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent. And I and I do a lot of work, you know, with with uh men and executives, and I, you know, and and men and women, male and female executives. And and one of the things I run them through is who they are as a king or queen. Who is your king, who is your queen? And it's an exercise we do, it takes about an hour or so, and we look at the aspects of the warrior and the aspects of the lover, and then integrate those two. Because I always say that the king and the queen are those who have the warrior and the lover integrated.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? The king is that whole person. And I've done this, Chris, for years, and I've done it with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, and no two have ever been alike. Right. And all are equally as powerful and beautiful and amazing. And I tell people when I start this, you know, because I do like, you know, a leadership workshop, and it's like, look, you know, people ask me all the time, you know, what who do I need to be to be a leader? Or who do I need to be to be a man? Like, what does it look like for me to be a man? I'm not sure if I've achieved that yet, or I am a man, or I am a leader. And I run them through, and I'm like, well, it's it's your unique and authentic man, your unique and authentic leader. And you run through it, and like I said, my king and your quick king are gonna be very, very different, Chris, but we're both gonna be king. Sure. They're both gonna be equally as effective. So we're not the same man. We can't be. I can't be you, you can't be me, but we can both be good men. Yeah, and this is what I tell men all the time is like it doesn't mean you know, if you want to be a masculine man, it doesn't mean you have to wear flannel and grow a long beard and tattoos and shoot things. No, you can be a very masculine man, and and you know, what one of the greatest warriors that I I ever interviewed. You know, I had a podcast years ago, and I I got a chance to interview um, he was nominated for a Pulitzer. He was a New York Times journalist, and he's the one who broke the concussion issues in the NFL.
SPEAKER_02Oh, in the NFL, the CTEs.
SPEAKER_00Right. So he's the one that that and and he he related CTE to the concussions. And what was so brilliant was he was like, I'm just a uh statistician and a mathematician. And the the and the thing was the NFL was trying to say there was no correlation between the two.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And he looked at the numbers and said, that's statistically impossible. Correct. So you have just insulted my mentors, my teachers, great mathematicians, great statisticians, and he wrote almost a hundred articles on this, and they fought him and they bashed him in the press, they tried to um you know undermine his credibility. Uh at some points, like his family was threatened by people, and on and on and on. And this guy fought, and I think it was like three years, Chris. This guy fought this on principle. And the reason why was because they insulted something he loved, math and statistics. And what he said was finally, after three years of fighting, he said he was sitting in a hotel room, and the NFL commissioner or whoever it was that was in charge. I don't know if it was um Goodell, but one of them called him and they said, Uh, yeah, uh, you're right, it's over. Yeah. And he was like, What? And they said, Yeah, we agree with you. We're gonna do something about it. And he said, I just I said, Were you relieved? Are you elated? And he goes, No, I threw my phone against the wall, I was throwing things in the hotel room, those an three years they kept trying to break me down and do whatever. And I looked at him and I was like, dude, you are like the epitome of warrior. Now, this is a math nerd, yeah self-describe math nerd with like the pocket protector and the whole thing. But he fought for three years for it. That's right. Like, dude, you're my hero. Like that's another example of a warrior. You don't have to go and grab a gun and go fight on a battlefield. Well, there's so a word, you know, you can grab your keyboard and go fight, you know, in print. And that's what he did. I was just amazing.
SPEAKER_02I love that because I think for you, um, you just nailed this concept of warrior because a lot of people think warrior, then you've got these weapons and you're actually committing. But the warrior to me, Eric, is someone who fights for something they believe in. It could even be themselves, right? It could even be, I'm gonna fight for my own dignity, I'm gonna fight for my own um sense of self-esteem and confidence, right? Or I'm gonna, you know, fight for something that has nothing to do with anything physical. But the idea is that you is that you fight for things, you fight for the important things in life. And and even if it's a uh, you know, I think that some some of the Catholics or the Christians will say, yeah, you fight for that soul, right? You fight for your goodness, you fight for your um virtue, right? Marcus Aurelius would say, you've got to fight for your virtue every day because there are temptations to lie, there's a temptation to do the wrong thing, there's a temptation to win over somebody and take something from somebody. There's a temptation that's there, but you gotta fight against that. That's actually being a warrior too, you know. And and I think that the some of the lessons that we are trying to teach young men is, you know, fight that impulse to go on social media, fight that impulse to go on a fucking porn site, right? Don't right, that's what you have to fight against. These are these things that you that you that you can be a warrior and you can fight for things for yourself, you know. So, so I I do have a question for you. When we're talking about models of manhood and different kinds, I was thinking about it because uh I'll give you an example. So on my office at work, I have a quote from Theodore Roosevelt. And Theodore Roosevelt talks about being the man in the arena, right? And you know, uh, if you guys, if you if anyone googles Theodore Roosevelt, man in the arena, pick it up, you'll see what I mean. But the idea is that there are lots of folks who can yik-yak and talk about other people, but unless you're in the arena, unless you're actually fighting, you don't know it. And, you know, that's that's actually the worthwhile effort, even if you lose, because it's so much better than those poor souls who don't risk anything, right? Um, and so it's really inspirational. I think there are so many things about TR that are awesome. And there's a fantastic biography called Theodore Rex, which is wonderful. Yet at the same time, he has a balance where he was a product of his time, he was a bit racist, right? He was kind of a bit imperialist, right? And so there are things about him that aren't, you know, in today's world as what we would consider to be great characteristics, but that does not diminish or minimize the greatness of the man that he was, right? And so as you start thinking about models of manhood, how do you talk to folks and young people about choosing models of manhood and discerning the models of manhood that can be inspirations for them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, one of the things that to realize is look, we're all we're all flawed humans. I, you know, I am, you know, we all are. And then the thing is, and this is what I loved about Carl Jung when he talked about the shadow, it was like you can't become greatness until you face your shadow and and accept the fact that you have one, right? All these people that are out there that are like, oh, I never this and I'm perfect that, and I'm the greatest husband. And I'm like, you're denying that side of you, right? So it's just it's understanding that we all have that side of us. And and in in looking for mentors, which is you know partially what we're talking about here, and or looking for role models who maybe like a Theodore Roosevelt who's out there. I find that knowing that they have flaws makes them more human to me. Right. Right. And and you have to understand look, I'm flawed, you're flawed, we're all flawed. It's how do we how do we um go after that? How do we um embrace it and attack it and all of this? And and one of the things that I wanted to bring up, while we were talking about the warrior and you know being the protector, and you mentioned the lion is the protector of the pride. We have you know, U.S. military who I absolutely cannot appreciate and be more proud of and honor more. And I've I've interviewed a lot of uh military veterans and active duty guys. And when you look at fathers in the family, um protecting the family, the husband protecting the family, what's the one common denominator? And when I asked the military guys, this is what I love about them, the the one answer that I got more than anything, the reason why, and it came down to love. And love is the most powerful thing in the universe. And when you were talking about going after those things in ourselves and getting that self-esteem, and when I look at, you know, going after shadow, what what what defeats shadow is love. We'll be right back. Light, the light of God, the light of the universe, the light of source, the light of love. And so for me, that's an important thing in a lot of these guys is you know, do they have heart? You know, um, because there are a lot of flawed men who have beautiful hearts.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00You know, I know men that are incredible men, they might drink a little too much. I know men that are incredible men and they may have, you know, had a rough upbringing and not the best. You know, they may have some, you know, jail time on their record when they were younger, but now they've come out of that. And I think the thing, Chris, we need to look at each other is we're all flawed, and and we have to accept it in ourselves first, and we can accept it in others, and then not trying to keep people in that box of oh, you know, you went to jail when you were 20 years old for stealing a car. Well, I don't know the circumstances of that, right?
SPEAKER_02And not only that, but that's not the entire story.
SPEAKER_00I mean, the one thing that's even who you are now, it's like that's right.
SPEAKER_02That's that's right. Because the one thing that um that I appreciate more now, and one of the reasons I love fiction, and um, you know, you read a lot of science fiction and and comics and the like, and the idea of a full story of a person, where if you only look at one small snippet, the analogy is a chapter, you're never gonna actually understand that person without the context of how that chapter was written and what comes after it, right? Sure. Uh and and so, and so when one of the things that I that I'm curious about is, you know, as you start talking about mentorship and you start talking about you know models of manhood, what do you think are some of these kind of immutable laws of mentorship, right? What are these these hard and fast um pillars that if you want to think about being a mentor, looking for mentors, what would you think that would be?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great, great question. And you know, one of the things I wanted to mention about what we were just talking about is about these stories and people that have, you know, some of these issues. We love a redemption story, don't we? Always we love them in movies, like the bad guy turns back into good and he saves the day. We love that, right? So that to me, that's part of the redemption story, and and I always look at wisdom, it's really, really important to me. So, wisdom, as a matter of fact, is a feminine lover heart quality, right? Wisdom comes from the heart, right? Intellect and everything come from the head, wisdom comes from the heart. And so, to me, one of the pillars of mentorship is this person has to have some wisdom. And along with that wisdom goes some battle scars. I love the guys who have been through it. Yeah, right. I don't want to hear the story of the guy who, you know, was an instant success and he knew all the answers, he never made a mistake. That guy is boring. I don't want, I don't want to talk to that guy. Right. I don't want the guy, and and I always say this to guys I'm like, if you have to go into battle and you got two guys you can go into battle with, you can choose one to lead you into battle, would it be the guy who's all clean cut in the nice crisp uniform and he went to war college and he got great grades and he knew everything and he studied all the battles, but he's never been in one himself? Or do you want the guy who's got bullet holes in him and scars? Right. He's all grizzled, and he's been like nine battles, and he that's the guy I want. So to me, the mentor has to have been there. He's got to be ahead of you on the path, and he's gotta have wisdom. Now, wisdom comes from experience. So there's a great quote, and I want to say his name is Anthony Davis, I think, and I'll go back and check. But he says that um knowledge comes from learning, but wisdom comes from living. Yeah.
unknownSo
SPEAKER_00The wisdom is just you can have knowledge, but the wisdom is the deepening of it through experience. Like if you know you wanna you want to talk about Texas and you read about Texas and you see movies about Texas, and you know, you've gone online and studied maps of Texas, you don't really know crap about Texas.
SPEAKER_02Correct.
SPEAKER_00That's right. And you've traveled around Texas, now you have experience. You have wisdom, you know about so I would say, first thing with with a with a mentor, one of the immutable laws in the pillar is that they have got to have wisdom and be willing to share their battle scars with you.
SPEAKER_02Nice. I like that.
SPEAKER_00You know, if if they're not if they're not willing to tell you, hey, listen, man, I screwed up big time.
SPEAKER_02And be open and honest and authentic and vulnerable about that. That's right.
SPEAKER_00That's what it is, right? And so to me, if someone comes from their head and they're trying to guide you and they're giving you, this is why I always say to everybody, I never give advice, I only give wisdom. You know, guys will say to me, Hey, Eric, I take you out for a beer or a cup of coffee or lunch and get some advice from you. I always say no, but I'm more than happy to share wisdom because advice comes from, like, hey, you know what? Hey, Chris, you have a podcast. I've read about podcasts. You know what you should do? You should do this. You should have background. You should immediately you're like, screw you, dude. Like, who are you to tell me that I should do anything?
SPEAKER_02You should.
SPEAKER_00So our our defenses go up at that point. But if I said to you, hey, Chris, listen, man, I had a podcast and we had some issues, man. And here's what happened, and then here's what we did about it, and then here's the result that we got. Now you can take from that wisdom whatever you want, and you can type it to pieces, and you know that I've been there. And if you ask me questions, I'll be like, Yeah, man, I screwed up. I, you know, whatever it is, and it oh my god, it was so embarrassing. I said something on the air, and you know, so I I and then you could go, oh man, all right, so now I gotta watch. You know, I had I had a guy when I when I first started out in podcasting, I interviewed him, called me the next day, and he was like, Eric, I don't know what it was, and hopefully the episode hasn't aired yet. But I said something in that episode that could get me fired. Can you edit that out for me? Absolutely, brother, 100%. Yeah, no problem, don't want you getting fired. So I look at that as wisdom. Like I I could have said, no, man, you signed a release, we got whatever, and whatever you said, you said that's on you. No, it was, you know, how can I help this guy? Because he was gorgeous enough to give me a beautiful interview. He did, he gave me a beautiful interview. But that's the other thing, too. So it's it's it's you know, being willing to share that wisdom. So you have the wisdom and really share that wisdom openly, honestly, genuinely. And number three, I would say this is another big pillar is you are not their friend. If someone asks you to mentor them and guide them, this is not much money time. We're not going to sports bars and watching the game and hanging out and being friends. Because I may have to become the guardian at some point and draw my sword. If I think you're getting off the path or you're acting like a chucklehead, or you're doing things that are detrimental to you or those around you, I'm gonna have to kick you back on the path. That's right. That is, I loved that. I gotta do that, right? So that's part of it. You have to be willing to do the hard stuff. I you know the saying, people say, you know, everybody wants to be a lion until it's time to do lion shit. Well, being a mentor is lion shit. There are times you gotta say, hey, Chris, listen, man, I I listened to your last two podcasts, and I gotta tell you, I saw this and that and the other, and and you were really and look, man, if you don't get it back on track, I think it's gonna fail, and I'm not gonna be willing to be your mentor anymore because you're just not willing to do what it takes. You understand that? Right? So that understand this though. Where does that come from? When you're that guardian as a mentor, does it what is it? I want to punish you and I don't like you, or I love you and I want to serve you. I love you.
SPEAKER_02It cut it comes from love, it always comes from love. And and and I think that that's actually a beautiful distinction where um you don't have to be friend and mentor. In fact, that might be detrimental. You might be mentor, not friend. Um, I love that. So the idea of that, uh, if I can recap it, that idea of wisdom, authentically sharing, and making sure you're not a friend, that your role is mentor, not friend. That that is wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Um, because that's the key thing. The mentor seems to come from the heart and really care about you and your growth and your path and where you're going enough that they can that they can do that. So it's it's really important to be that for somebody. And you know, listen, you have to you're gonna have to say things they don't want to hear, but it's stuff that they need to hear. Stuff that they need to hear. When you think about it, is lion hearted, right? And that's where that comes in. And um, you know, that's you know, you said the king and the queen, they you know, they do for their their kingdom, right? That's the the warrior and the lover, the lion heart for their kingdom. The hero, you elevate to hero when you do it completely from the heart, altruistically for whoever.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00May not even be somebody that you know. And so to me, mentors are heroes, right? They have no, I don't have a vested interest in you. There's no agenda here, right? Like I'm not trying to mold you into something I want you to be so I can benefit from it. I am from the heart. I want you to be your best, and that's be your best self.
SPEAKER_02So so the thing of it is with young men in particular, um, I think it's a challenge for them when they're moving along to find these opportunities for mentorship. Um, I remember when I first came into the working world, um, I had some professional mentors which were invaluable, but Erica, I worked in the office, right? I was in an office space going every day to someone who was not my friend, right? Someone who was telling me and showing me how to be a professional. Um and then now we've got a lot of people working remotely, or they're working hybrid, or they don't have that person who's been there, done that, and can show them the ropes as a non-friend and as a true mentor. So where, you know, as I start going around in the world, I'm actually now trying to find opportunities for mentorship for young men. But but I'll be honest with you, Eric, I maybe haven't tried hard enough, but I haven't, I haven't like put myself in that position where I'm seeking these young men to say, hey, I'll be your mentor if you want it. Um it how do you how do you do that? How do you find proteges? How do you find mentees?
SPEAKER_00You know, it it's interesting when you said, like, you know, you did it in the office. And it's so funny because when you said that to me, I was envisioning like this little encapsulated world. And now that people are working remote, now that we have things like you know, Zoom and social media online, it's expanded globally, right? So you can really reach anybody. And you know, the thing is, is you can be an informal mentor or a formal mentor. And informally, mentoring, I say to guys all the time, is like, you know, um, coach coach a team, like a like a youth sports team. You know, I have a client of mine, very, very successful guy, self-made millionaire, and he coaches his daughter's softball and basketball teams. Excellent. And, you know, and he has these young, young girls that that look up to him. Sure. And the assistant coaches, right? And you know, he's not formally mentoring them, but informally, he's showing them an example, he's guiding them, he's giving them some of his wisdom, he's giving them, you know, uh challenging them a little bit, you know, in what they're doing. And I think that's that's a way to do it. Um, you can also, you know, I find, and this is really interesting, I've had this happen. You know, I'll I'll write posts on LinkedIn or Facebook, and I'll have people say, oh man, you know, I've been following your writing for years, and it's meant so much to me. And I have no idea they were paying any attention to anything I was doing. But they were kind of seeing me as like an informal mentor. They were reading my stuff, listening to my guest appearances on podcasts like yours, and and really getting some value from it, and that kind of guided them. And then there's, you know, who's around you? You know, do you have a nephew? Like I've had guys tell me that, you know, they have nephews, and there's no real strong father figure in that young man's life. And I'm like, step in.
SPEAKER_02All right, step up. Absolutely. Step up and step in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, go, go.
SPEAKER_02I mean, go be an example for this guy, but don't try to take on the father role, but you know, tell him you're being a model, but you can be a model of manhood, right? I mean, that's that's the thing. Uh and and and where I um I look now, I've been thinking a lot about that, where you know, the model of manhood that I want to be for younger folks, the I have two daughters, they're young adult daughters, the model of manhood that I want to be for them, right? Um, you know, for their partners as well. And I think that what I also look for now is who's the model of manhood that I look for for the next chapter of my life? Because it doesn't it doesn't change, right? I mean, when you are in your teens, you're looking at people in their 20s and 30s. When you're in your 20s and 30s, you're looking at people in their 40s. I remember um my wife and I were in our 20s. We went to a party of one of her colleagues who was turning 60. And we go to their house. This is in San Diego, and it's a small home. I mean, it's a nice, it's a modest, it's a modest size house. And it's a modest size California house, you know, two bedrooms or three bedrooms, two baths, one single story, right? But they had this backyard, and some of the lots back that were built in the 50s and 60s did that. It was kind of a smaller house with a larger backyard. And in the backyard, they had the party, they had a pool and everything like that. So Southern California. Anyway, we're at this party, and I'm looking around, and these people are there. It's and and uh Gary and BJ is the name. BJ was the woman and Gary was the man, and they had two young adult daughters. And I just looked at him, I was like, You're the guy. Like, like, Gary, you're so wealthy. And he laughed, he goes, I'm a sales rep for IBM. I'm telling you, Foster, I'm not wealthy. I said, But but but you have this, like this is what I'm looking for. This you've now be without even knowing it, this guy became a model of manhood for me. And I've seen him maybe twice in my life, but it planted a vision of who I wanted to be and the kind of life I wanted to live, and and how I wanted to have a moment like this for me, right? And I think that as we start going and as men start getting, you know, growing older, I think it's really important that they find that model to say that's the kind of life in person that I really want to emulate for these aspects.
SPEAKER_00So, a couple things on that, which I think, and that's awesome that you saw that, because that was not me when I was younger.
unknownAnd I'll tell you that story in a second.
SPEAKER_00We were talking about the role models, and I remember seeing this quote some one time, and I actually posted it a few times in social media, but it said, be the father you wish you had.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And I love that. So that kind of helps some guys in guidance. Like, oh, well, what I wanted my dad to do in this instance. So there was that. But what you're talking about right now with that guy and that story, and what I love about it is, you know, I talk to men right now about having honor and awe of other men and being like right, honoring them for who they are, which means telling them, hey man, listen, I like what you said, really appreciate what you've done here, and being in awe of what they've done. Because when you do that, the only time that you can integrate what they have into you is when you recognize it and appreciate it. And so the story is, you know, I was a um a men's lifestyle journalist for years, about 15 years. And I traveled around the world and I did, you know, great these great press trips and crazy shit and all that. But part of it was also interviewing celebrities and um, you know, successful people, entrepreneurs, that kind of thing, and doing articles on them. And I went into every interview, like, this guy's an asshole. You know what I mean? Like, you know, this guy's made a lot of money.
SPEAKER_02That is hilarious.
SPEAKER_00And he looked up on some shady stuff, and that was kind of my mindset going in.
SPEAKER_02That is so funny, Eric.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, 100%. And I and I already had like the article written in my mind before I interviewed them, and I was like, And I think you see that even now, you know, today. We see a lot of people like journalists and and and the media, where it's kind of like you're like, oh, dude, you're you're not in awe of this person. Right?
SPEAKER_02They're coming at it with such skepticism and they want to just poke daggers into them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so that was me. So I just a hundred percent that was me. And if I was, you know, you know, at a party and I met a guy and I'd look down and see his watch, and it would be like, and I and I knew watches because I used to write about them and I saw like you know, a high-end watch on a guy, I'm like, oh, this guy's a dick. I don't know I mean what I found was some of these guys that I interviewed that were celebrities, and I and now I've interviewed tons of them. Like I had at my podcast with a whole bunch of celebrities at you know, at one point. And the thing was, when I looked at them with honor and awe of who they were and what they've accomplished, it's a whole different conversation.
SPEAKER_02Changes it changes, it changes your whole perspective of how you want to speak with them and how you want to relate with them.
SPEAKER_00And what you receive from them. Because if they feel that energy of like, this guy really doesn't like me, they're gonna lock down. But when you're like, dude, look, your your career's been phenomenal. What I really love was this, and I gotta honor you for like, you know, some of the celebrities, like they were living in skid row, just trying to live their dream and make it happen. And you know, I met entrepreneurs who declared bankruptcy multiple times before they hit it big. And so, you know, you got to be like, wow, man, like what kept you going? Like, you know, I would get all this from them. And I think the more, and especially as men, uh, we don't really do that with each other. We don't really honor each other and say that, hey man, I'm in awe of what you're doing, and I love what you're doing, and and and and you get so much from that, just having that attitude. So, when did you change, Eric?
SPEAKER_02I'm curious, when did when did you when did you flip that in your in your heart?
SPEAKER_00I think it was when I was writing and I was interviewing some of these guys, and and I was trying to be, you know, like hard ass about it.
SPEAKER_02You were posturing, right? Because uh was it a defensive mechanism because you didn't feel as successful as them.
SPEAKER_00I hated myself. I didn't have self-esteem, and here these guys are doing better than me. Yeah, so you know, I I was like, nah, screw this guy. But it became hard. The more and more of them that I met and really just spoke to, like you and I are talking, just like man to man, and and interviewed them, the more I was like, Well, this guy's a dude, man. Like, I I really respect what he's done, like he's not being and listen, there were a couple that were assholes just because you know, people can be assholes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but you had but you had to say, okay, it's not about me and my low self-esteem that I'm gonna feel bad and want to bring this guy down and find ways to poke holes so I feel better about myself. Is there's was that incremental?
SPEAKER_00That's that's a failing strategy, right? That's right. That's right. I was looking at my life and I'm like, look, these guys are successful, and I'm not. So what if I just kind of do some of what they're doing and respect them and honor them and be in awe of them? And yeah, that might help. And I actually had a mentor at the time who you know helped me see that too. Like he was, you know, because he was one of those lion hearted, and he would go, Hey, Larry, listen. No, you're you know, what these guys are successful, you're not, so what's missing? Right, right. You can hate on them all you want, but it's not getting you anywhere. That's you know, it's like what was I can't remember the I know the quote, but I can't remember who said it. I don't know. I thought it was Socrates or Aristotle, one of those guys. But they said, you know, holding a grudge, which is the same as like being resentful of somebody or hating them without really knowing who they are. But he said holding a grudge is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die. I love that. And I looked at it like when I'm interviewing these guys, I can hate those guys and think they're assholes and whatever, but they're living in the fucking hills in California. They're clearly didn't know. They did something right. Yeah, and I'm sitting here going, oh, well, shit, dude. The problem is me.
SPEAKER_02And I'm writing about them. Now, was there was there was there a transformative moment, or did it come by degrees and kind of small increments where you where you realized small increments, and it was like talking to them more and more, and then like get actually getting excited about having to talk to some of these guys and interview them.
SPEAKER_00Like, listen, there were some guys that I just wanted to interview. I was like, wow, yeah, this is awesome. Two of them come to mind. Um I did a phenomenal interview with um Paul Sr. from Orange County Choppers. I don't know if you remember American Chopper. It was a big thing.
SPEAKER_02I remember the TV show, right?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So I I interviewed Paul Sr. and he was so generous, so open and honest and real and raw about his life and and how he became who he was and making the money that he made. He made millions and millions of dollars, very, very successful, but he didn't start out that way. Sure. He was an alcoholic and a drug addict, and he, you know, couldn't hold a job and you know, all of these things, and then turned it around. And I'm like, wow, that's spectacular. And then the other was a guy named Stephen Lang, who's an actor, and he's in Avatar. Uh he plays uh Colonel Quarch in Avatar, the bad guy.
SPEAKER_02I like I like that dude. I read an I might have read the article that you freaking wrote about him, but he was actually really interesting. And one of the things that I loved, he said, Look, I'm on the set, I'm kind of in age, I'm kind of senior to all these people. He said, But I work out and stuff. He says, But the most important thing I do is I take a nap and I don't apologize for it. I take a nap every day to recharge, and I don't apologize one one dime for that, right? Um, he was actually very interesting. What an interesting man for you to meet.
SPEAKER_00Well, I met him because my brother is actually his personal assistant. Oh, interesting. My brother was working in theater, and um Steven was was doing a one-man show, and he was looking for a stage manager and someone to travel around the world with him while he did this one-man show. And like three or four people mentioned my brother's name to him because my brother was man, you know, stage manager at a theater at the time. And so uh we call him slang, his nickname is slang. So slang said, you know, everyone's saying this Ron guy, who's this Ron Royal guy? Like, I gotta meet this guy. And they hit it off immediately. And Ron's been working for him for years. And so when I had the podcast, I was like, Oh, hey, do you think slang would let me interview him? And my brother asked him, and slang to his credit, and I will never forget this because the guy's awesome. He's just an awesome guy. Slang goes, Well, I have no idea what it is or what it's about, but yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02That's cool.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? So, how do you not interview a guy like that and want it to be an amazing interview? And sure, he talked about his father, and and you know, his father is a well-known guy. His father, um Gene Lang, had written a book about philanthropy, and it was the book that inspired Warren Buffett to start this thing about giving away your fortune. Huh. And so Gene Lang had a fortune, but he was not giving it to his kids. He told the kids, like, your mom's gonna be taken care of, like, she's already got a fund that's happening. Everything else I'm giving away. So it was Lang had a brother and a sister, and he's like, the three of you got to figure out what you're gonna do. And all three of them are very highly successful. His his brother took over the family business, the father's business. His sister is an attorney, and I believe he's a DA in New York and had run for some big office in New York. And then obviously, you know, Steven is a wildly successful, you know, uh movie star.
SPEAKER_02Um, and and I that is so interesting, right? What an interesting choice from his from his dad for Gene to say, look, I'll just be straight up with all y'all. We've got a lot of money, but you're not getting it, which means you're gonna have to figure out how you're doing this. You know, the safety net is the life that you have, but not a fortune that I'm gonna give you, you know. And and and and I think yes, I think that that is so smart of the dad to do that early on, right? Not to do it later, but early on to say, this is the plan for all this wealth that I've got. Um, and I think that that to me, that was very smart parenting. And that's actually very, like you said, it's very lion-hearted parenting because it's I'm gonna be very strong with all of you because you know what else? What Gene told them, Gene told them, I am so confident in your ability to make your own life that you don't need my money because I know you're gonna do it. And what does that do for the kids? Yeah, I can do this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and they all did it, all three of them. Yeah, like they're not trust fund kids, they're not obnoxious, like you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02And they learned how to and and and it was that confidence that the that the dad said, I've got, I believe in you, so you believe in you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, slang is like that. Um he's a lying hearted guy. I mean, he's no bullshit. Like he's he is a great guy. A lot of fun. You know, Ron loves working for him. Early on when Ron started working with him, um, Slang kind of put his boot in his ass. And Ron came to me and he was like, Man, and this guy, can you believe he told me this? And I go, Yeah, I can. Dude, you screwed up. Like, he was not wrong in saying what he said. Yeah. My brother's like, Really? And I go, Yeah, dude, look at it. Like, you made a mistake, and your mistake could have cost him.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So he was basically telling you, Hey, don't screw around like that. This is my livelihood. Yes. You can't be going off saying shit. And then, and so Ron was like, Wow, got it. And then, you know, never did that again. Sure. He didn't like hearing it, but he had to hear it. Sure. And so I think it's because slang was raised by Gene that way. Like Gene was no bullshit.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? Like he said we'd come home and like we'd, you know, dad would come home from work and we'd wrestle around with him and we'd, you know, put the boxing gloves on and go at it and have a good time and fun. But he said, if dad had to be disciplinary, man, he was the sword came out.
SPEAKER_02Well, and also, too, he's father not friend. Right? And that's that's what I mean. Father not friend. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And mentor not friend, right? He's mentor not friend. My job is to get you on this path. That's right. And help you be a success, guide you anywhere I can. It's not about, you know, buddy buddy. So yeah, those are all the things that I learned along the way. And then and I and like right now, we just had a, I don't know, however many minute conversation on these other men, you know, Paul Sr. and Slang. And the thing is, is when you're in awe and you can honor them for that, see what happens? Like telling their story, because I love that part of their story, helped me and I hopefully it you know brought value to you and the listeners that helps me. That's the thing. It's awe that is so important.
SPEAKER_02And also, too, Eric, that actually extends the wisdom, right? It's not just what that moment of learning between slang and that other person, but by telling the story, sharing that story, you share and extend the wisdom. You know, that's one thing we could do as men, too. I think we could do a better job of sharing stories that are good stories and good models that other people can learn from. That's actually why I had the show. I mean, this is this is the reason.
SPEAKER_00And listen, it's about being, like I said, vulnerable from strength. Like I could say, you know, telling the stories is yeah, but you know what? Um share your battle scars, right? Share your war stories, share the ones that nobody you don't think anybody, you know, you're embarrassed or ashamed of. I found that telling those stories are are have the most value. Yeah. You know, and and you got to be open and honest about it. And listen, here's the other thing to do, and I I would highly suggest this, you know, from wisdom, because I've done it and I've seen the response, but we don't honor each other enough. Yeah, and so I've done some some you know things. I I have uh an adventure company, we take you know men out into nature and challenge them a little bit. And one of the things I had them do, we did one of the events was around Father's Day, and I said, you know, do this with any of the men in your life, but you know, you could do your mom, you know, close, close female relatives, but but stick to men because it's usually harder to tell men things. And you know, Father's Day. So look at your father, and and if you can't say it in person, send him a text or an email and just say, you know, hey dad, uh, I don't say this enough, but here are some of the things that I really love and honor about you. And then just bullet point them, right? And I actually did this for my brother. And my brother, like, he was he sent me a text and he was like, dudes, you know, F you. I can't believe you said that to me. He said I started crying and I was driving and I was having like the you know, the voice text thing read it to you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's like I had a pullover because my eyes were turning. He's like, Man, but he but he loved it. And the thing is, we don't say it enough. And I I I you know gave the guys that challenge during that adventure trip for the Father's Day, and when one of the guys that was on the trip was going to his father's for Father's Day, and he was a very successful attorney, corporate attorney, um, highly successful. And his father, he had a brother and a sister who weren't as successful, but you know, did okay. His father was uh an immigrant from Mexico and had come here because he wanted his kids to have a better life than he did. And so he really wanted to honor his father for that. And he said, whole family's around, and my dad is sitting, and I said, Dad, I just want to honor you and tell you what I love about you. And he he started saying all the things he loved about his father, and he said, I've never seen my father cry. He was like this tough Mexican guy, risked everything, left everything behind, came over here with zero, worked as hard as he could for us. And he said he was weeping. His father was openly weeping, and everyone in the room was weeping. And he said, The father, all he kept saying over and over again was, I did it for you kids. I did everything for you kids. I wanted you to be better. And he said it inspired his brother and sister to do the same thing. And he said it was just one of the most beautiful things. And so I think when we can get to honor and awe in other men, it makes us better men. And it may and it provides that that role model of I can honor you and I can be in awe of you, and I can come completely from my heart from love. And there's nothing weak about that, it is absolute strength.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, that's a great way to wrap it up. And I honor and am in awe of you, Eric. I am so grateful that you spent this time with me, and I'm really proud of the man that you've become. And I'm grateful that you're that you're sharing your insights and ideas uh with other men. I think that's wonderful. Um, one final question I have is who is someone that you know that I don't know that I should know?
SPEAKER_00Oh, wow. I I got a couple of guys for you. I got one guy who I love and adore. He's a good friend of mine. His name is L. Scott Ferguson. He goes by Fergie, and he is a uh he was an 11-year Navy veteran. He's got a show now called Time to Shine, and and he would be phenomenal. And I would love to, I'm gonna make a note right now.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I'd love to speak to Fergie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you would love Fergie. He's a great interview, he's an awesome guy. Um so he he without question is somebody that I think um you know you you should you should talk to. And um, the other one just went, but he'll come back and I will email you, Chris. Trust me. But wonderful. 100% Fergie is somebody you need to meet. I think you'd you'd love him, and you guys would click and and have a great time talking here, like you and I did. And listen, I will say to you, you know, I I really appreciate the honor that you said, but I will tell men all the time is you only see it in me because it's also in you. You couldn't see it in me if it wasn't already in you. So we gotta, you know, take some of that on for ourselves too. And I know I do what I do to just pay forward to the men who poured such value into me. Yeah. Um, I love coming on shows like this because you know, I meet great guys like you who are you know doing everything they can to be better men and help men be better men. And you know, I just love that. And so, you know, the more of this that we do, the more that this gets out there, I think the better we're all gonna be, right?
SPEAKER_02That's the idea. Let's get better together. Well, Eric, you are my friend, and I call you my friend. And um when I'm in your area in Florida, I will absolutely look you up. And um I really appreciate you spending the time. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Like I said, my honor, and I appreciate you having me on.
SPEAKER_02Great. Have a wonderful evening.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, you too.
SPEAKER_02Bye-bye. Well, let's go, Eric Rogell. Unbelievable. God, I love this conversation. I love this man. He is fearless in his disclosure of his emotions, of how he maybe was brought up to feel like a lamb, maybe overprotected by his single mom, and how he learned to figure out that's not who he actually was, that he had a confidence and he had a strength, he had an inner resilience, he had a way about him where it was okay to be as big as you can be and make a life out of that. Alright, so what did I learn from Eric? I learned this phrase of lion-hearted. I love that phrase. Lion-hearted, to be strong, to have pride, to understand that your job is to protect your pride, but also to be tender and kind and compassionate and open with your love and fierce with your love, and not be bashful about expressing it, right? To understand that I can be a warrior, a lover, a king, and a hero, and I can be all of those things as a man, and I can talk to other folks about that too, and help other men be the best versions of themselves, and be proud to be a man, right? Don't be an a-hole, but be proud to be a fully first rich, complex man. His book is called Lions Raised as Lambs, your guide to being a better man. And man, he can help you become a better man. You'll find it on Amazon. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Tell some other folks about this podcast, and maybe you can join us too. Visit menfolkjourneys.com. Would love to chat with you and tell a friend. I appreciate it. And thank you for listening. Wordbidfillared.
