Menfolk Journeys
This podcast explores how different men from all walks of life wear the beautiful and confusing mantle of manhood.
Men can be knuckleheads in public life. But in private, if given the right questions and if they feel comfortable, men can also be thoughtful, reflective, and have deep conversations about their lives, big questions, and meaningful ideas.
We have great conversations with men just like us and from all walks of life, so we can learn from their personal stories and all get better together.
Menfolk Journeys
44. Aaron and our Relationship with Money
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What does it mean to have a relationship with money?
We attach such deep emotion, anxiety, and energy to the idea of money in our personal lives, and in the world itself. We think about money in terms of status, livelihood, material comfort, risk, and more, and sometimes fail to see it clearly.
And, how do men deal with their own emotions about money? And is that changing?
This conversation goes into a man's journey about finding a career that dives into emotions, planning, and thoughts on how to manage, think, and feel about money.
What do you think about money? How often do you think about money? And, most importantly, what are your feelings about money?
So fear, scarcity, um, these kinds of things will override override our our our better angels and and stop us from thinking clearly about money.
SPEAKER_02Welcome in to Menfolk Journeys, the podcast of Great Conversations with Men. I'm your host, Chris Foster, and we're going to explore how we wear this beautiful and confusing mantle of manhood in the 21st century. Look, I get it. In public life, a lot of men are knuckleheads. But in private life, we can be thoughtful and we can be reflective if we have the right conversation if we feel comfortable talking about our story. And we all have a great story to tell. And we can all learn from those stories. We can learn about who we've been, who we are, and who we want to be. That's why we're gonna have this conversation. So we can learn from other men just like us. And today we're gonna have a conversation with my new friend Aaron. Aaron is a financial planner, but he didn't start out that way. He started out in the film industry in Hollywood. And then came to financial planning later in life. I think that gave him some unique perspective. I think it gave him an understanding of people, and I think it gave him an empathy to how we all have a different relationship with money. Can't help ourselves. We've got emotions tied to it, and it changes the way we think and we feel about ourselves and our identity, about our worth. And he's gonna unpack a lot of those insights. We're gonna have a conversation about our relationship with money. I hope you enjoy this episode. He's a marvelous man. Welcome in to Menfolk Journeys. Well, all right. Well, Aaron Kirsch, welcome in.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Tell us a bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_00I work as a certified financial planner. I have been doing this for a quarter of a century, which is a long time. Before that, I was a filmmaker, and before that, I was aspiring musicians. And uh now I got a real job. But I've been doing this for a long time. And uh I'm a dad, got two great kids, uh, got two cats, got a dog, got a beautiful wife. Things are good.
SPEAKER_02Things are good. That is well, congratulations on your family. So I'm really curious though, uh, you went from art to commerce. Um, tell me about that. And when you know, you decided uh from musician to filmmaking to finance, uh, when did you decide to make that pivot from that artful life uh career choice into one that's focused on financial planning?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great question. When was when I wasn't making it as a filmmaker? So the musician thing was really hard. I pushed, I pushed, I realized I wasn't going to make it as a professional. I was very good, but I wasn't good enough. Filmmaking was my next step, and that worked out really well for about eight years. But I was a camera assistant and an aspiring director of photography. Unfortunately, aspiring prefix never went away. So I decided to get a quote unquote real job. My dad had been in the business for a very long time as a financial advisor, and I was at the time I was 30 years old, and he said, Well, why don't you come work with me and see what you think? And I never left. So it was, it's been a very, very good job because I used to make content for other people to enjoy. And they would enjoy that for a couple hours and then they'd move on to the next piece of content. But I watched my dad actually impact his clients' lives and help out families and make really meaningful things in the worlds of finance to these families and help them build generational wealth. And I realized that what he's doing is so much more long-lasting and impactful to people. So I learned to love this change away from being an artist and moving into the world of finance.
SPEAKER_02You know, I think that's a beautiful transition, actually. I think the the root of that, the why of that, I think is actually very poetic. Uh, when I go, so this dates me, but I used to go to Blockbuster Video, and you just see walls of movies. And it's true, like uh so much time, effort, energy, art goes into making a full movie, right? Of all the things that go into it, and then it's released, and then it's on video, and then it's put on a shelf amongst hundreds of other movies, right? And it's it's for us as entertainment, we see it for a couple of hours. Maybe it sinks in, maybe it doesn't. However, on the flip side, being a financial planner does what you said, it creates generational opportunity and generational wealth, not only impacting that person, but that person's family down the line. Um, so you're right, in terms of uh in terms of impact, quote unquote, social good, right? Actually being a financial planner is much more impactful into the real lives of people than being a filmmaker or an artist. Um, is there, I would think, are there parallels that you had with your artistic um uh pursuits also within the financial pursuits?
SPEAKER_00I don't know if there's parallels, but there's always this balance, Chris, between what's your vocation and what's your avocation. And if you have a decent career that gives you the financial wherewithal and the time to do the things that you love on the side, then you can continue to do that. After I became a financial advisor, I still did photography. I did weddings and bar, I suppose, and things like that. Yeah. However, that was taking away time from my family. And then I really enjoyed taking pictures of the kids growing up, doing videos of the kids growing up. And now in this world of social media and content creation, I'm starting to get into creating videos, doing podcasts. So I'm still kind of taking some of those skills that I had from those years of experience and applying them now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that makes sense. I think that um I think it's very hard to, it's very challenging to make a living in the performing arts. I think that the air gets very thin and it's kind of like um baseball, right? A lot of kids go into baseball, very few make it to the show, right? It have a career in the pros. It's I think the same is true in an artful profession. It's very hard to actually go through the years to finally make that as your profession. And and in Los Angeles, too, it's a challenge because as a gig economy, you always have to find your next one and your next one and your next one, right? Um, to me, that's very could be very scary, especially if you want to have a family, especially if you want the stability of raising a family. I think that that's a very challenging, you know, road to go down.
SPEAKER_00It is. People told me often, oh, you work in the film business. You have a lot of time off. And I said, no, time off is when you're at a job, you leave for a couple of weeks, and you come back to that same job. What I have a lot of is unemployment.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Right.
SPEAKER_02And that sucks no matter what profession you're in. Unemployment sucks. You know, and it's it's interesting that, you know, as you your dad did that for a living. When you started to move into your artistic pursuits, I'm curious, did you go to college for uh music or for filmmaking or for photography and the like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I went to UCLA film school. Okay. And then when I graduated from that, I took a few music classes at some local schools to learn musical theory and performance and things like that. All right.
SPEAKER_02So UCLA Film School, one of the best film schools in the planet, your dad clearly was supportive and saying, son, you do you. I'm I've got my business, financial planning, but you go, you was he supportive of your uh approach and pursuits?
SPEAKER_00He was, Chris. And I think it's important, even though I never succeeded at that, that I tried it. Yes. It's important that I don't look back and have regrets. And right now, my kids are in that situation right now. My son's a gymnast. He's 17. He really wants to do gymnastics in college. Is he gonna make it? I don't know. But he's working really hard and I want to push him. I don't have to push him. I'm sorry. I want to let him push to try and make that happen so that he can, whether he makes it or not, he can at least say, I gave it my all. I gave it a try. It didn't work out, I can move on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I think that's that's actually an important piece of life that you try something and you know, you give it the shot, right? Because I I have to believe, Aaron, like you're at UCLA film school, everyone's looking at each other, we're like, we're gonna make it. This is gonna work. I'm gonna be that director. I'm gonna be that professional, right? Um, as it should be on in a strange parallel, I I actually went to uh fine arts school. Um, so my path at the time was to do illustration for children's books and the like. And I, you know, I shot my portfolio around to different publishers in New York, and it became pretty clear to me early on that um while I had thought that that was the life that I had would want to live, the uncertainty of the next um gig, the next job, it didn't suit me at all. I I found that uh I found that instability um to be so contra to any type of comfort that I had, um, especially because my childhood was there was a lot of strange instability with the dynamics of my family. So I realized as an adult, I needed the stability. And so actually I moved very quickly. I moved away from trying to make it as a as a as a as an illustrator and into kind of a more quote unquote professional role, right? Um for you though, you gave it the try. And, you know, as you were giving it the try and and working through, did you think you were, were you optimistic or were you always kind of hedging your bets like, oh, I don't know if this is gonna work? I'm curious. That's a good question.
SPEAKER_00I was always I was always thinking about the next thing in the career. I really wasn't thinking about other anything else. And it wasn't until the very end when I felt like I hit this wall, like I wasn't gonna make it any further, when that aspiring prefix really wasn't gonna go away. Because I saw the writing on the wall. The film business in Los Angeles has been on the decline for a very long time. Productions are moving to other states, they're moving to other countries. And this was just a different environment back then. The people who made it as directors of photography made it in those blockbuster years when there was this huge demand at Blockbuster for lots of videos on the shelves. And then once all those shelves at Blockbuster Video were filled with VHS tapes, there was less demand. And then the work started going elsewhere where it could be produced cheaper. So I saw the writing on the wall then. So it really wasn't until I started hitting that wall where I couldn't feel like I was going to advance any further that I started looking for other options.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah, so interesting, Aaron, though. Did you think, because your dad had a financial planning business or his own firm, did you always think that that was going to be a safety net for you?
SPEAKER_00No, not at all. When I was a kid, I'd help him out. He taught me a lot of things. And then I just forgot about it because, hey, my dad's doing this. I don't have to pay attention. Let him take care of the money. He'll help me figure out all this stuff later on. And it really was kind of this soul searching moment when I tried to figure out what do I want to be when I grow up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That he made that, he made that offer, extended that to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So um, what was that conversation like with your dad? Was it humbling? Was it uh was it did it fill you with relief? Was it a hard conversation?
SPEAKER_00It was not a hard conversation. He's someone who I've always gone along with very well. Family dynamics are so different. We get along great. My dad and my brother have had a lot of friction over the years. I could never imagine them working together. But my dad and I, yes, that wasn't a hard conversation. And it was the way he extended the offer was really just, hey, come try this out, see if you like it. Sure. And he didn't put any pressure on this is what you have to do or this is how you're gonna make your career, take it or leave it. It was more of a just come try this out, see what you think.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I that and you know what? That was very wise of him because he didn't say, well, since that didn't work out, son, there's you're right. He was like, just test it, you know, you're good, you're fine. Um, and then of course you found that, you know, some hidden joys and hidden loves and some, you know, also some intellectual stimulation, right? When you try to figure out how you can help your clients. So I think that works out really well. And and for you, you know, one of the things that that I I don't know if it's the right phrase, but I think people actually have a relationship to money. Like they there's emotion tied in with it. So when you started to walk into this, did you sense that? Did you feel that? Or was that not part of the um the thinking on your part?
SPEAKER_00Oh yes, I noticed that very quickly. There was a conversation, so I got into the business uh right at the tail end of the dot-com bust. So it was 2002. It was about the bottom of the market after the dot-com bubble burst. I was speaking with this one particular person, and she was an older woman, and I said, You've been in cash for a long time. The market has dropped dramatically. When do you think you're gonna need this money? She said, I'm not gonna need this money. Maybe 10 years, maybe 15 years, it's probably going to my kids. I'll probably never need it. I said, Okay. So where do you think the market is now? She said, Oh, it's really low. So where do you think it's gonna be in five years or 10 years or 15 years? She says, higher. I said, Are you sure about that? She goes, Oh yeah, definitely higher. I said, Okay, you don't rely on this money. You're convinced that the market will be higher in five years, ten years, twenty years. Let's start putting some of that money to work then. No. Why not? Because I'm scared. And it's at that moment, Chris, when I realized that there is a very strong relationship between emotions and money. And there's this fascinating field called behavioral finance. These two psychologists named Amos Tversky and Danny Kahneman were pioneers in this field. They were behavioral psychologists and they won the Nobel Prize for economics because they figured this out and they ran a series of experiments to prove that we are emotional people that we're not rational when it comes to money.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that that's makes a lot of sense because there's so much tied into fear. There's so much tied into what if I don't have enough? There's so much tied into um, what if I make a mistake? Um, there's probably also, although we don't like to admit it, Aaron, there's probably, you know, the boat missers, right? Oh, I should have put a $10,000 into Bitcoin in 2008. I'm such an idiot. Why didn't I do that? And look at all these people who did. Of course, there aren't very many people who did, but we still look at the one or two people who did, right? And feel like we left out. So we know that there's emotion tied into money. Um you know, I guess the I it seems obvious, but why do you think that is? Why do we put so much put so much feeling into money?
SPEAKER_00We're emotional creatures. As much as we like to think we are intellectual and cerebral, we have this amygdala. We have these two parts of our brain. We have the what some people refer to as that lizard brain, which is instinctual, which is uh something that's more reactionary. And then we have our upper part of our brain, our cerebral cortex, which differentiates us from most other animals, but they are also always in conflict and they override each other. So fear, scarcity, um, these kinds of things will override override our our better angels and and stop us from thinking clearly about money.
SPEAKER_02Right. I'm sure you've seen it. I'm sure you've had so many really intimate conversations where my hunch is that sometimes you must feel like a therapist of sorts when you're actually talking with people about their futures this way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And when you think of the way we are designed, we physically and mentally aren't much different than humans were 200,000 years ago. The environment we live in is drastically different. But if you go back 200,000 years, if you saw a bush moving around and wrestling, well, that could be a tiger, or that could just be the wind. And if you were wrong and it was a tiger, you get eaten and you don't pass your genes on to the next generation. And if it's so so we tend to skew towards negativity. We tend to see things as potentially dangerous even when they're not. So when we see the market go down, we get fearful. When we are on the freeway and someone cuts us off on the freeway, we get enraged. And there's things that are biologically built into our brains that make no sense in modern society, but they made a lot of sense 200,000 years ago for survival.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, and I think that's an interesting point to make. Um let's call it as little as 5,000 years ago. 5,000 years ago, you know, Egyptian economy, Egyptian, you know, life was thriving. There isn't even at that time, there wasn't a sense of quote unquote investments for most people, right? Um, and then as you start to move through from an evolutionary standpoint, we're still catching up to the idea of this concept of money, right? I mean, money's maybe been around, you know, money as kind of the thing we believe in. It did you ever read the book Sapiens? I love that book. Right? Where he said the one thing that humans from all cultures now believe in is the money. We we believe that a $1 bill signifies something. And you kind of have to because, you know, if you're trading bushels of wheat and you know, barrels of wine, you have to have some equation for how many bushels of wheat equals a barrel of wine, right? So I understand the concept and why money, this abstract thing, is such an important uh vehicle for us to communicate with, especially across cultures and across languages and across products. But you touch on an interesting point that the emotion of money comes into play because biologically, we never had to worry about money. We had to worry about the next you know, beast to eat. We had to worry about, you know, whether or not when the rains were gonna come, we had to worry about how to scavenge and and you know create you know protection for the tribe. So it's kind of a new thing biologically and evolutionarily that we're still trying to figure out.
SPEAKER_00It is.
SPEAKER_02And we're using all of those primal emotions with it because in today's world, money equals survival or not for most folks, right? Most folks don't have a small farm where they can subscribe you know, sustain themselves on the farm. You can't do that anymore. You have to have money to survive.
SPEAKER_00You do. And that's what makes that huge contrast between what we're built for and what we actually uh how we actually behave in today's society. So it's it's very different. And The only real way, I think, to overcome that is just to be cog cognizant cognition of cognizant, sorry, of what those biases are, to know that this is what I tend to do, being of the Homo sapien type, and to recognize that in yourself and to try and figure out ways to override that. So when you see the market going down, it's good to say, well, I'm in this for the long term. And I'm not going to worry about short-term fluctuations. And I know that emotionally I'm going to be prone to do that. I'm going to prone to panic, but I need to override those natural biases I have in my brain and say, I've got money in the bank for my short-term needs. So I really don't care what happens in my retirement account that I'm not touching for 10 years or 20 years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, and it's a funny thing. So my question for you, Aaron, is when you talk to people, um, do you try to have to figure out who they are in terms of their either aversion or comfort with risk, their um the their maybe, maybe even their history of growing up, which creates their relationship of money. I'll give you a good example. I'll just give you me, because it's the only the best example I have, right? So um my folks split when I was five. Uh my dad was a psychiatrist uh in and so I grew up in Pittsburgh. So he was a psychiatrist in Butler. So that's about 45 minutes or an hour outside of Pittsburgh. And in that environment, that's a long ways away, right? So he was he was up there and I live with my mom. So my mom was a teacher at University of Pittsburgh and then, you know, was not making a teacher's salary and ended up then getting a job at Westinghouse at $10 an hour, which at the time she was really excited about. And she moved up in her career. But my dad, um, as he ran the psychiatric ward for Butler Memorial Hospital, he was making a lot of money. And so I had two different um environments that I grew up in. I grew up in my mom's environment, which she wasn't poor, but she wasn't wealthy. She was, it was a modest income, right? It was a modest house and modest um things, cars, clothes, whatever that is. And my dad, who made a lot of money and and had a larger house, and it was a very interesting dichotomy between these two environments. And I recognize that that growing up, I had these two different perspectives of gosh, do we, you know, I don't, I don't, maybe I don't think of myself as being wealthy versus, oh, my dad's got a lot of money. So I know that I enter into my relationship with money in a, in a, in a stranger way. I I I have an innate insecurity that I'm not gonna be planning enough or or have enough, yet at the same time I try to benchmark myself with other people or where I think I should be. So it's complicated. I'm assuming, and I made this a question more than a statement. Do you have conversations like that with people all the time?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I do have that all the time. Yes. And your example is absolutely perfect, Chris, because everyone does have a different relationship with money based on their life experiences. And how we solve for that is the financial planning part of things. We want to say, okay, where is your risk level? Do you have to take on my risk, or can you be less risky? Uh, just for an example, I've got one client who likes to take a lot of risk. And he and his wife saved a lot of money over the years, and they're very comfortable and they have plenty of money. They tend to be into watching the stock market go up and they like winning big. And so they're highly aggressive. And I keep pointing out look, if the market were to drop dramatically tomorrow or the next day, with you being so close to retirement, you're risking running out of money. But by being conservative and protecting the all the wealth that you built, you will never have to worry about running out of money. That's one extreme end of things. And then on the other extreme end, there was someone I worked with who was in her early 40s and she really didn't like risk. But she had a good job and she wasn't retiring for 25, 30 years. And running the numbers with her, I showed her that look, I know you don't like risk, but if you don't take on more risk, your risk is not being able to live the type of retirement you want to live. So you emotionally don't like the idea of risk, but you need to take on more. And you need to reconcile that with yourself. And then with that other couple, I know you like to take risk, but you should back off, take your foot off that gas pedal and enjoy your life and not not risk running out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So are those um, how are people um generally, are they receptive to those conversations?
SPEAKER_00I think they are because again, we're we're we're showing them where they're at and we're showing them what they need. And it's giving their cerebral cortex uh the ability to override their amygdala and their lizard brain. Sure. And and and hopefully they'll come to the right decision. Now there's going to be people who are never going to be able to do that. But for the most part, most people are capable of doing that.
SPEAKER_02So it's so interesting, Aaron. You just talking about it now. I mean, we've known each other for 25 minutes, so but you seem natural at this. Um, did you think that you would be a naturally good financial planner? No.
SPEAKER_00I had no idea. I had no idea what to expect, but this behavioral finance thing fascinated me. And, you know, Chris, when you get to our age and we look back on life and say, oh, I wish I would have done X, Y, or Z to get where I was at now. If I knew that this was the profession I was going to be in, I would have not done business school and I would not have done film school. I would have studied psychology.
SPEAKER_02Right. Because to me, that's actually the most interesting part of it. I think that, you know, the why people make decisions is uh, I don't know, it's this ever unknowing mystery, right? So, um, so you know, and I come with an appreciation of how and why the human mind works. And I come with an appreciation of the human condition, the challenges, the foibles, the you know, insecurities, the confidences. Um, I come by it naturally because I mentioned my dad was a psychiatrist. And so he was, you know, he never mentioned patients' names, but he would talk about situations, right? Um it's it it skipped a generation, and my daughter and her husband now are therapists. They run their own private practices. So they're kind of, you know, in the mix of kind of talking about why people do what they do. And I've always been fascinated as to that realm of human behavior. Um, and it's funny though, I never think about it much until we start talking amongst ourselves about that human behavioral relationship to personal finance and to personal money. I also think it's different, Aaron, now, because maybe in generations past, um, they would say, great, you know, I'm gonna work hard, I'll retire at 65, and I've got about 10 years maybe at tops to enjoy this. But that's not the case anymore. We're gonna be living into our 90s and to almost 100 plus. What that's a different conversation to have with someone who's 40 or 50 years old.
SPEAKER_00It absolutely is. There's so much money and energy, as you probably know, going into longevity, not just extending lifespans, but actually reversing the aging process.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's really interesting because I think that probably the most interesting and stressful topic that financial planners think about is how do we plan for longevity? How do we know if, you know, my clients, I talk to my clients all the time. They go, Oh, I I'm um I'm in my 60s, but I think my money only has to last till 80 because my dad died at 78. Okay. But that was 30 years ago. How much more has medicine advanced since then? How much more will advance by the time you get to that age? Trying to figure out how long money has to last is really complicated.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, you know, even just you saying that gets my heart tight, Aaron, because how long money has to last, it's still an unknown, but it it has to last longer than ever now, right? Even more so than the boomers, right? So the boomer generation is, from what I understand and what I've read, the boomers have, you know, the largest amount of wealth tied up in homes and home equity and the like, and they're not moving, right? They're staying in their houses. One of the reasons why we're having such a housing shortage. And um, and there's the greatest wealth transfer in the history of America's happening over the next 10, 15 years, right? These boomers eventually are going to pass, but they might not be passing for much longer than we think, right? They might be around for 10, 15, 20 years. They're into their 90s, you know, the next generation's getting older. How does that, how does, how do you see that affecting generational wealth?
SPEAKER_00That's a good question. And I don't know the answer. I don't know if I've got an answer for you. I do know that when Social Security first passed as a bill, people would start getting their social security at 65. But guess what the average life expectancy was? 63.
SPEAKER_03I didn't know that. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00And now the average life expectancy, I believe, is 78. Yeah. And some people are going to live far beyond that. So it's really a challenge. And there's lots of things that lead to a lot of unknowns. Long-term care is a big issue right now. People are living longer. There are more and more people getting dementia and living with dementia and need lots of help, which is very expensive.
SPEAKER_02Very.
SPEAKER_00So I think that people of our generation and younger shouldn't be counting on a large inheritance. They should still be building their own nest egg and still building for their own retirement because we just don't know what older generations are going to have to pass on to us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And there's also a philosophy too. A buddy of mine was reading a book called Die With Zero, um, where the concept is um your kids will handle themselves, they'll be taken care of. You know, don't you worry about generational wealth. You just worry about living life to the fullest. And if you end up dying with zero money, that's not a bad thing. Um I don't know. For me personally, I I have um personally, Aaron, I have a challenging time with that concept. I think that I want to leave something for my kids and my kids' kids. I want to have some type of generational wealth. I say that because I'm the beneficiary of generational wealth in the sense that uh my parents paid for my education, um, and then we pay for our kids' education, but we want something left. Uh, what do you think? Have you taught have you talked to people who've talked about die with zero and you know, spending their way down so that there's nothing left to give?
SPEAKER_00I think most people are adverse to that concept. We're we're we're humans and go back into our emotional biases. The humans who survived are the ones who took care of their offspring and wanted to see their offspring survive, right? That's the genes that we inherited. And I find that most people want to leave something to the next generation, even if they don't have kids. I have a client whose sister passed away. She did not have children, but she's living, leaving a significant amount of month money to her 12 nieces and nephews.
SPEAKER_02True. Great.
SPEAKER_00Right. So, and she wanted them to have something. So I think that most people want to leave something to the next generation. Yeah, they want to, especially if they're inherited as something, they want to make sure that they leave something too. Because we want to see the next generation survive. We want to see the next generation succeed.
SPEAKER_02We'll be right back. And, you know, translating all that instinct into money is I think really interesting because you have there are some people I know who never think they have enough and always need more. There are some people who think that they're fine and and you know plan poorly uh and run out.
SPEAKER_01It's is it harder than you we think to get it right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I think the whole die with zero thing is a problem because all the planning in the world, even if you plan everything perfectly and you get close to zero, what if something happens? Life is too uncertain. What if you fall and break your hip and you need 24-7 round-the-clock care for two years? That's gonna get you to zero much faster. It's gonna get you to zero before you die.
SPEAKER_03Before you're ready for it.
SPEAKER_00Long before you're ready for it, right? So it's good to have some kind of padding. Life is too uncertain, and I tell people I don't like to do a financial plan because the day after the financial plan is completed, it's out of date. I like to do financial planning to where we plan for contingencies, we plan for what-ifs, but life changes, life throws curveballs, good things happen, bad things happen. And so I think having a steady planning meeting and check-ins on an annual basis is the right way to do it. And the diet with zero concept is cutting things a little bit too close if you're inclined not to leave money to the next generation. And again, most people they want to leave money to next generation. Sure.
SPEAKER_02It's kind of like the Mike Tyson phrase where he said, You a plan is great until you get punched in the face, right? And you got to change, change. You know, so as as people get older, Aaron, and as as as men get older in particular, um, and they and they want to they want to plan their resources well, um I guess my question is, how many years do you think that we need to plan for not working? Right, because you know, I'm in my mid-50s. I'm assuming I'm working at least another 10 years, maybe even 15 years. I've got a buddy of mine, uh, he's 74, 73, 74, and he's uh still working. He's the chief curator uh paleontologist at the Natural History Museum. And he's like, why wouldn't I? Because I look at bones all day. It's awesome. Like it's so of course I'm working. But you know, at some point he's gonna stop working. At some, you think. Um when when what age is right? And and and and a lot of men, I think, also are worried if they can get jobs, if they can actually be employed. Um, you know, I feel like I have a lot of years left. I feel very youthful, um, but I have some experience too. So I think that I'm this perfect mix of, hey, I've got the experience, but I've got a lot of energy. Um, yet at the same time, I'm not a 38-year-old person who's maybe even more attractive as a hire. How what kind of conversations are you having with older men as it relates to how long they want to work and when they want to retire and if they can retire?
SPEAKER_00A lot of it has to do with what retirement is going to be. And I think a lot of people are only focused on the money part of retirement about accumulating a certain dollar amount without figuring out what they're gonna do when they retire. I've worked with someone who spends, I don't know what the number is, let's just say, for instance, spends $200,000 a year who used to own a couple of restaurant franchises and had a lot of money. And then I had this other couple who retired with half a million dollars in their retirement account, and they were spending the same amount of money as this person with $3 million. And so they ran out of money for obvious reasons, right? So, what is your lifestyle gonna be? Some people have very expensive lifestyles in retirement planned out. Some people have very modest lifestyles now and don't expect it to be dramatically different in retirement. And so planning not only for the money, but planning for what retirement looks like, what you're gonna do, how you're gonna live your life. What's gonna give you satisfaction and fulfillment and purpose in retirement is just as important as trying to figure out how much money you're gonna need, because that's really gonna dictate how much money you have to put away and how much you can save so that you can retire and live the life you want to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So and I I wonder, do you have to ask people what their visions of retirement are?
SPEAKER_00I do. And usually everyone's got a number for when they want to retire. And usually when I ask, what does retirement look like? Most people say, I don't know. Or I haven't thought about it. Really? Or I don't have a clue. Which actually led me on this quest to read dozens of retirement books to try and figure out a way to help people figure that out. And I couldn't find what I was looking for, so ultimately I wrote a book called The Rewarding Retirement Workbook, which does help people go through a bunch of exercises and try and figure out what's going to be meaningful and purposeful and fun and enjoyable in retirement so that they can walk into the office of a financial planner and say, I know exactly what I'm gonna do, where I'm gonna live, who I'm gonna be doing things with. And then that planner can figure out, okay, based on that, we're gonna know approximately how much that's gonna cost. We're gonna know how much you have to save up, and then we'll figure out when you can afford to retire based on what you're earning, what your savings are, uh, what your investments are doing. And then they can work backwards and come up with a plan.
SPEAKER_02To work backwards, right? Because I think that it starts with, you know, so often as I've been getting older, I've been distilling problems or challenges with the why, the what, and the how, right? Just answering those three questions, right? You know, the why is, you know, why at some point do you want to retire? Like is it because you want to be free from the man, or if you want to just, you know, spend more time doing your hobbies, right? And then kind of the what is kind of what are you doing to fill that time? And then the how is, well, how could you make that happen practically? Right. Um, that's I think an interesting approach because you don't start with, you know, the give me the age you want to retire and how much money you have. Mm-mm. Give me what what that vision looks like, right? That vision of retirement.
SPEAKER_00It's very different than when my dad first started as an advisor. Back then, people would save as much as they could. They'd crack open the piggy bank, metaphorically, at retirement, count all their change, and say, okay, this is how much money I have, which means this is the kind of lifestyle I can have in retirement. And working backwards is a better way to do it, is say, this is what I want. Let's work backwards and figure out how to get there. And the the why, I think, um, in your three questions is the most important thing. Why do you want to do what you do? Having a purpose, living your life according to the values that are important to you will help you figure out the how. And it'll figure out the, what were it says? The why, the how. And uh what was the why, the what, and the how? The why, the what, and the how. So if you have a why, Simon Simic, start with why, right? Start with why if you have the why, you will figure out the what and the how.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I and I think that do you go through those questions um with your clients? I mean, I I assume once that gets to be more of a deeper conversation. It's not just about how much money I have, but to your point, it's about what is purpose, right? What is the purpose of my life? I think a lot of men in particular wrap up a purpose around a career. Um, I was speaking with um Don Atkin. Um Wonderful conversation a couple of episodes ago where he actually uh is flourishing now at 74, where he's finding a much greater purpose now than he even did, you know, X number of years ago. Um, do you have to kind of probe in with your own clients to ask them what their purpose will be?
SPEAKER_00I do, and I like to have them a copy of the book, which kind of helps. But absolutely, it's important to know your purpose. Um, and and you're right, Chris. So many people are so career-oriented, men especially, if they are, whether they have partners or not, careers are so important as what defines us. You go to a cocktail party, you meet someone for the first time. What's the first question?
SPEAKER_02Right. It's terrible. What's your name? Yeah, what do you do?
SPEAKER_00What's your second question? What do you do? Yeah, that's what defines you.
SPEAKER_02What do you do for a living? You know, it's so funny you say that, Aaron. I've been trying to not do that. I've been trying to, when I say, Oh, what books do you like to read? Right, or something like that, or or it's something that's non-work related. Um, but it's very hard. It's it's kind of imprinted into us where, you know, even when I was growing up, I would see our parents talk about people and they would say, Oh, yeah, he's a, he's an accountant, he's a you know, pharmacist, he's a you know, driver, he's a doctor, whatever he is or she is, it kind of creates when you're little, uh, it imprints upon you that the profession of somebody is a label of that person, right? Whereas, you know, if someone would say, Oh, Aaron, oh yeah, he's a financial planner, I'd be like, uh, he's an artist, he's a father, he's a lot more than, I mean, he's not just the what defines him as in terms of a career. It if someone labeled you that, that would exclude your rich history of musician and doing film work, right? And that whole pursuit, which is a big part of your life. Um, why do we do that?
SPEAKER_00Socialization, I think. And you know, I don't know. It's here I am with someone who knows about this. And I fell into that exact trap, Chris, when you asked me at the very beginning of this podcast to tell me about you, right? Or tell you said, tell me about yourself, and what did I start with? I'm a fashion. And started with my profession. Exactly. And it was only later that I got into you know, I was a musician, I was an aspiring filmmaker, I'm a happy dad with great kids and a great wife, right? That's that's what's important. Uh, so we are socialized uh to think this way. It's just um, it's our culture, but I love the fact that you ask what books do you read? And you know, if you were to ask what books do you read, tell me about your best vacation and what made it the best, right? Right now you're actually finding out about the person. What's important to them? What do they love to do? Because how many people do what they do out of choice? How many people do what they do out of necessity? How many people do what they do out of circumstance? I mean, I I tried to be a musician and a filmmaker out of a choice. It didn't work. It didn't work. It didn't work, and I got lucky my dad had a good profession that he was able to hand off to me. So that was circumstance, and that was luck.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but but I think you recognize that. And you know, but what I I think is interesting about that journey of yours, Aaron, is you try to do the things of choice, and you realized early enough that this was not gonna work out or pay off in a life that you would want. Um, and so then you said, yes, but you know, you say circumstance now, but I would argue the life, you know, the career that you have now is choice. It wasn't circumstance at all, right? It was a it was an opportunity, but you had you still had to choose that, right? I mean, and so there's a there's a part of you that either was survival or knew that you know, a vision of a life that you wanted was not gonna happen in your current direction. And I get this. I mean, I was 23, 24, a couple of years out of school, doing some illustration gigs here and there, um, you know, working freelance for different agencies. And I was like, this sucks. I this sucks. And had I continued to pursue it and leaned in and dove in, could I have, you know, had a successful career as a freelance illustrator and done the things that I wanted to do? Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe I would have been 30 or 32. My relationships blasted because I would be so focused on my career, not have an ability to do what I'd want to do from a family perspective, be in my mid-30s, looking around saying, oh my God, what do I do from a professional standpoint? That was too much of a risk for me. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna cut bait now and I'm gonna hone in on something that can provide more stability. Um, you know, and it and it just ended up that way. And, you know, no harm, no foul to anybody for trying to do their choice. But for you to say that, you know, you know, the the choices that we make, we don't always know that they're gonna pan out. But, you know, I love it that you gave it a try. I think that what you're doing now, though, you seem so natural at. Clearly, watching your dad work with clients or hear him talk with clients and hear really the the value and the gift that he gives other families for so for their their financial security. That must have, that must have had some impact on your choice as well.
SPEAKER_00It I'm sure subconsciously did. And I went into this business quite reluctant because I was looking back and kind of pouting at the fact that I didn't get to do what I dreamed of doing. But then I found the the beauty and the joy in what I do and the rewarding parts of what I do. And I think anyone can do that, whatever mindset is so important. There's, I'm sure you've heard the studies about people who are janitors cleaning up at a uh hospital ward where people are going through chemotherapy and getting sick, right? And they don't see themselves, and they're happy because they're seeing themselves as ambassadors for the hospital who are trying to help people feel better who are going through this terrible disease. And they make it a point to crack jokes with the patients and be nice to them and show kindness, and they're not thinking about the fact that they're cleaning up messes, right? So mindset is so important in life.
SPEAKER_02Oh, a hundred percent. And I also think, too, it's it's actually interesting because what you're doing now is a very social and intimate uh relationship you have with your clients. Very few things are as intimate as money, right? I mean, that is when you I mean, it's something we never disclose to our friends, right? We don't open up our checking accounts and our 401ks say, hey, best friend, I've talked about religion, I've talked about politics, I've talked about soul searing moments, and when I was, you know, staring into the abyss, but I'm certainly not going to tell you how much money I have, right? And so you have a really interesting, you know, super intimate relationship with these people. And then it's such a high contrast to a profession as being a musician and artist, which inherently is selfish because you're trying to hone your own craft. You have to focus on yourself. Now you have to focus on somebody else. Is that one of the reasons you fell in love with it?
SPEAKER_00The way you put it that way, yes, I think so. And and altruism is important and focusing on other people and helping other people is so incredibly rewarding.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_00And if you look at any all the studies show it too, I mean, how many who's happier? Okay, people who who need help financially, who need donations, they're happy to receive donations. But why do people give donations when they don't have to? It makes them feel good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. So um giving to others is really important. And you know, going, I keep going back to evolution, but we survived as human beings because we are hypersocial and because we took care of our own, of our own tribe, right? Um evolutionary advantages are not something that humans have, right? We don't have sharp teeth, we can't run faster than other animals. What made us survive all these years and get us to the top of the food chain? It's it's the helping each other out and taking care of one another, and and I that's important to acknowledge.
SPEAKER_02It's the cooperation, you know, and and actually when you think about that, your role in someone's life is a very cooperative role, a very helpful role, right? And you know, it's um it is a it is a funny thing because there are new, you know, archetypes now. Uh, I think we need to think about that as we get older, right? Are you the wise sage? Are you the um the philanthropist? And and I think though that as you get older for use, your you and your role as guide is that true guide, right? It's like I'm gonna, I'd it's not my money, it's your money, but I'm gonna guide you based on how you see yourself and the dreams you have and and what you want to do. And I can just offer the best guidance I can to you, but in the end, it's your decision to make. Is that is that how you come into that relationship?
SPEAKER_00That's exactly how I come into that relationship. You could be a financial advisor.
SPEAKER_02I don't think I have the chops uh from from uh from understanding investments, but what what I find so interesting about your role is that human side of it, right?
SPEAKER_00Very much the human side to it. There's the research side of it, which is great too. There's the constantly learning new things, which really is exciting to me. I've always been someone who loves learning, but I'm a person, I'm a people person. So I the the nice thing about what I do is I get to do a little of everything. But yeah, it's the human connections and the the social aspect of it that I think is probably the most rewarding part of what I do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I would I would believe I would I believe that to be true. Um so a question for you then is um what kind of books do you like to read?
SPEAKER_00I have not read a lot of fiction in the past several years. I do read a lot of nonfiction, and a lot of it is based around my career. But I'll interesting. So there is psychology, um, uh history, politics. These are the kinds of things that I'm interested in. I would love to get into some nonfiction or sorry, some fiction. Just I I haven't had the time lately. I think maybe when the kids are all grown up and out of college, and uh maybe, maybe I'll have some time.
SPEAKER_02You know, but it's interesting. You just mentioned politics, you mentioned psychology. It is actually, you know, when I think about it, those all have influences in whatever financial planning we have. The elections that have come up, people get worried, you know, nervous and they start planning for one outcome or another. Um, you know, clearly international affairs have an impact, right? Um there are so many different divergent forces that actually come into play when we make money decisions. That's, I think, maybe why people get so confused and um overwhelmed because they don't know how to make the right decision, because there's so many conflicting sources of what you should or shouldn't do.
SPEAKER_00There's so much information out there, and it's terribly confusing. And back when my dad started in the career, there was a quotron machine where he could get quotes. There was no internet. People wanted to know how their IBM stock was doing or their ATC stock. They'd have to get on the phone, call my dad. My dad would have to swivel to a computer that he shared with another advisor in another office. They actually had these windows between the offices with a little cutout so they could share the computer.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome. That's like Brazil. Did you ever see the movie Brazil where they were sharing a desk?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Terry Gilliam is a directorial.
SPEAKER_03Right. You remember that scene where they were sharing the desks back and forth?
SPEAKER_00That's right. Yes. And so now we're just bombarded with information. 24-7 news cycle, internet, social media. There's there's so much noise out there, and it's hard to cut through it. But I think having a plan and having a long-term focus can help you get rid of all the noise and focus more on the on the on the outcome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I like that. I guess I was gonna kind of ask you at the end what your one piece of advice would be, but I think you just said it, right? Um, is focus on the why for you first and um be circumspect and I guess I don't know, I'm not gonna call it patient, but I don't know, what would you say? Is that is by focusing on the why, does it help simplify a plan?
SPEAKER_00I think focusing on the why helps you simplify everything in life, right? Um you go to the store, you've got 100,000 products on the shelf. Do you need them all? Why would you need this item over this item? Um if you're focused on retirement and you have your why, does it really matter what is in the news this week? Because it's going to be different next week. Sure. Right? Of course it will. Every financial crisis has a different reason why it happened. But there's always financial crises, and they and and we always get past them eventually, right? So if you're saying, hey, I am investing for retirement, it's 15 years from now. There will be financial, there will be several financial crises between now and the retirement. My why is to focus on retirement, to accumulate wealth, and to ignore all the noise and keep saving money and making smart investments and ignoring all the news because I know eventually I know where I want to be, and I'm gonna focus just on that. I think having a why in anything in life, whether it's financial or going to the store, or how you spend your time outside of work, or how you spend your time at work, or what career you choose, anything in life, having that why is so important. And you know, I wish I had thought of it before Simon Simek, so I could do the TED Talk, but that's all right.
SPEAKER_02That's all right. No, that's fine. I think that that's it's a help. I think that he uh did a nice job of crystallizing that idea. And then I found it to be very helpful in a lot of conversations, especially at work and in life, like you said. Well, Aaron, this has been a delight. I am so glad that we had the chance to talk. Um, so I've got a final question for you. Um, who is someone that you know that I don't know but that I should know?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question.
SPEAKER_00There is a health and wellness coach that runs the corporate wellness program for my company, and he is a very sharp guy and very dedicated, very passionate about health, fitness, nutrition, well-being.
SPEAKER_02Excellent.
SPEAKER_00And his name is Jeremy Mullins, and he works for a company called First Form, which is out in St. Louis. And he helps people put things into focus and really helps with the why of why health is so important. And I mention that a lot to people because I like to, when I'm doing planning for people, I like to break up retirement into three periods. This isn't my idea, I stole it from someone else. But the idea is you've got your go-go years where you're younger and more active. You have your slow-go years, maybe in your 80s, and then your no-go years.
SPEAKER_03No-go years. I was wondering if that was gonna be go-go, slow-go, and no-go.
SPEAKER_00No-go. And if you're not focusing on your nutrition and your sleep and your exercise now, all those dreams that you have for retirement for your go-go years, I want to travel, I want to do this, I want to be active, I want to see grandkids, I want to change the world, I want to, you know, play sports, whatever it is, I want to continue doing that in my retirement. If you don't have your health, then your go-go years will be non-existent or short.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So um, no matter what age you are, whether you're retired or planning for retirement or our age or our kids' age, focusing on that is really important. I think Jeremy would be a good guy to talk to because he likes to focus on all stages of life and making sure that you're the best you can be from a health perspective health perspective.
SPEAKER_02I love it. That's fantastic. Of course, that'll extend our life, make our life longer, which means I have to plan better. All of it. All of it. Well, Aaron, thank you so much. I really appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00My pleasure, Chris. It was a great, great conversation. Have a wonderful evening.
SPEAKER_02Take care.
SPEAKER_00Thank you too.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you, and all right, Aaron Kirch. That was incredible. That was, to me, one of the better conversations we've had about money, or that I've had about money, personally, with almost anybody. Why is it that we have our relationship with money the way we do? What is it about money that makes us think about our own worth as people and as humans? Why is it that we can have conversations with our best friends about the deepest subjects of our lives, our pains, our fears, worries, religion, faith, politics, etc. But we can't have a conversation about money? Right? We could divulge deep, dark secrets, but never divulge how much money we make. Why is that? What is this relationship with money we have? Why is it so secretive? What does it mean to us? So, what did I learn from Aaron? Well, I learned that it's okay to have emotions about money. And they're gonna change. Sometimes we'll be afraid, sometimes we'll be excited, sometimes I'll feel better about myself, sometimes worse about myself, and I think all of that is okay to feel. And that in the end, money is just this thing. It's just numbers in a bank account. But we know it's more than that. It's about stability, it's about health, it's about vitality, it's about keeping ourselves, you know, afloat in our later years, especially when we retire, if we can retire, if we are lucky enough to have investments. There are a lot of people who aren't, and I understand that. But maybe the question I ask for you is what is your relationship with money? And why is it the way it is? Only you can answer that. Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Visit menfolkjourneys.com and book a conversation. I'd love to have a conversation with you too. And I hope you enjoyed this chat. Thanks for listening, WordBitFillared.
